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UFO Tech 1⁄5
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1994-10-08
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From: BRIAN SHUMATE To: ALL Subject: UFO TECHNO 1/5 Datum: 01-19-94 21:59 Area:
Conspiracy
On the Record, KLAS-TV, Las Vegas, Nevada, 12/9/89, 7:00 p.m.- 7:30 p.m.
George Knapp, producer/host Robert Lazar, guest
George Knapp: Hello, and welcome to On the Record. One month ago, we began a
series of reports about UFOs. With the exception of a few cranky newspaper
people, the response has been overwhelmingly positive. We've had requests for
more information from all over the country and from all over the world.
Tonight we're going to delve a little deeper into the subject with the man
who was the impetus for our report in the first place, Bob Lazar. Bob, good
to have you here. A thumbnail sketch of yourself for those who might not be
familiar with your background.
Robert Lazar: I worked at Los Alamos National Lab.
Knapp: As a physicist?
Lazar: As a physicist, and hired as a senior staff physicist at Area S- 4, for
what I was told anyway was the United States Navy.
Knapp: Where is S-4?
Lazar: It's about 10 to 15 miles south of Groom Lake, about 125 miles north of
Las Vegas.
Knapp: How did you get the job?
Lazar: I really don't want to mention the guy who I got it through. But I was
referred to a person at EG&G to drop off my resume to; that's where I was
interviewed; though the job is COMPLETELY unrelated to EG&G.
Knapp: What did they tell you you were going to be doing? Or DID they tell
you?
Lazar: No, they really didn't tell me until the very end. They said a
high-technology job, something that I'd be very interested in.
Knapp: Okay, so you get hired. And what happens? Do you fly up there?
Lazar: Fly up there. First day was reading briefings and that sort of thing.
And it became evident to me pretty quickly the level of technology they were
dealing with: gravitational propulsion and things that science has really only
barely touched on.
Knapp: We'll get into the things that you saw in a couple of minutes. But
it's been about a little more than three weeks since your identity was made
public. We had you on another program a couple of months ago -- using an
assumed name and having you in silhouette -- but since your identity has
been made public and since this information has been made public, what's it
been like? What's been the response from people that see you on the street?
Lazar: The response has been almost all favorable. In fact, everyone that
I've run into has been very supportive, very interested. I guess there's just
two or three letters --
Knapp: -- from people that don't believe you?
Lazar: Yeah. Essentially.
Knapp: Responses from other media outlets as well?
Lazar: Yeah.
Knapp: They want to interview you? What do they want?
Lazar: Essentially everything, yes. Radio interviews, TV interviews. A lot of
people want to dig back into my background and re-trace everything.
Knapp: Many of the people who have been calling -- calling us as well -- were
under the impression that either you've gone underground or you've been silenced
or we've been silenced by dark and sinister forces. Anything like that happen
to you so far?
Lazar: That's ridiculous. People are always going over the deep end on that.
And no one's told me -- other than originally -- not to say anything. And I'm
sure no one's come forward to you.
Knapp: But in the beginning, they told you to keep quiet about this.
Lazar: Oh yeah! It's the most secret program in the United States.
Knapp: In what way did they try to make sure you kept your mouth shut?
Lazar: Everything up to death threats. I mean CONSTANT reminders of it, signing
away my constututional rights for fair trial and that sort of thing.
Knapp: And since this thing, your phone's been tapped, you believe?
Lazar: Yeah, I believe. I have a tap detector, and occasionally after I pick up
the phone, a little red light goes on.
Knapp: The reason you came forward with the information to begin with? Is it
related to the fact that they were bothering you?
Lazar: Yeah, it was essentially to stop that. What had happened was, I sent in
a request for my birth certificate, and as it turned out it wasn't there
anymore, that I wasn't born at the hospital! And that kind of got me
wondering what's going on. I put in a request for some other information,
previous jobs, and that was also gone, and I thought something had to be
done before I disappeared.
Knapp: The same thing -- it was Los Alamos? They've never heard of you?
Lazar: Yeah.
Knapp: Anything happened since the reports have aired?
Lazar: They let me know that they were around by doing stupid, childish little
things. But nothing serious, no.
Knapp: You were worried about your LIFE though for a while there, weren't
you?
Lazar: That was one of the reasons to come on and let everything out on the
air; it's a little of insurance.
Knapp: Are you worried any more? Do you get the feeling you're over the hump?
Lazar: To some degree, yeah.
Knapp: Do you find that most people really believe you or that they just want
more information?
Lazar: I think alot of people believe what I said, but the majority I think
do just want more information, too. It's an in-depth subject.
Knapp: Let's look at some of the technology you saw. When did you first get
the idea, what's the first thing you saw that made you convinced that it's
not from here?
Lazar: The first thing was HANDS-on experience with the anti-matter reactor.
Knapp: Explain what that is and how it works and what it does.
Lazar: It's a plate about 18 inches in diameter with a sphere on top.
Knapp: We have a tape of a model that a friend of yours made. You can narrate
along. There it is.
Lazar: Inside that tower is a chip of Element 115 they just put in there.
That's a super-heavy element. The lid goes on top. And as far as any other of
the workings of it, I really don't know, you know, [such as] what's inside the
bottom of it . . . 115 sets up a gravitational field around the top. That
little wave guide you saw being put on the top: it essentially siphons off the
gravity wave, and that's later amplified in the lower portion of the craft.
But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown.
Knapp: Now we saw the model. We saw the pictures of it there. It looks really,
really simple, almost too simple to actually do anything.
Lazar: Right.
Knapp: Working parts?
Lazar: None detectable. Essentially, what the job was was to back-
engineer everthing, where you have a finished product and to step backwards and
find out how it was made or how it could be made with earthly materials. There
hasn't been very much progress.
Knapp: How long do you think they've had this technology up there?
Lazar: It seems like quite a while, but I really don't know.
Knapp: What could you do with an anti-matter generator? What does it do?
Lazar: It converts anti-matter . . . It DOESN'T convert anti-matter!
There's an annihilation reaction. It's an extremely powerful reaction, a
hundred percent conversion of matter to energy, unlike a fission or
fusion reaction which is somewhere around eight-tenths of one percent
conversion of matter to energy.
Knapp: How does it work? What starts the reaction going?
Lazar: Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction is initiated.
Knapp: Automatic.
Lazar: Right.
Knapp: I don't understand. I mean, there's no button to push or
anything?
Lazar: No, there's no button to push or anything. Apparently, the 115 under
bombardment with protons lets out an anti-matter particle. This anti-matter
particle will react with any matter whatsoever, which I imagine there is
some target system inside the reactor. This, in turn, releases heat, and
somewhere within that system there is a one-hundred-percent-efficient
thermionic generator, essentially a heat-to-electrical generator.
Knapp: How is this anti-matter reactor connected to gravity generation that
you were talking about earlier?
Lazar: Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides a tremendous amount
of electrical power, which is almost a by-product. The gravitational wave gets
formed at the sphere, and that's through some action of the 115, and the exact
action I don't think anyone really knows. The wave guide siphons off that
gravity wave, and that's channeled above the top of the disk to the lower part
where there are three gravity amplifiers, which amplify and direct that
gravity wave.
Knapp: In essence creating their own gravitational field.
Lazar: Their own gravitational field.
Knapp: You're fairly convinced that science on earth doesn't have this
technology right now? We have it now at S-4, I guess, but we didn't create
it?
Lazar: Right.
Knapp: Why not? Why couldn't we?
Lazar: The technology's not even -- We don't even know what gravity IS!
Knapp: Well, what is it? What have you learned about what gravity is?
Lazar: Gravity is a wave. There are many different theories, wave
included. It's been theorized that gravity is also particles, gravitons,
which is also incorrect. But gravity is a wave. The basic wave they can
actually tap off of an element: why that is I'm not exactly sure.
Knapp: So you can produce your own gravity. What does that mean? What does
that allow you to do?
Lazar: It allows you to do virtually anything. Gravity distorts time and
space. By doing that, now you're into a different mode of travel, where
instead of traveling in a linear method -- going from Point A to B -- now you
can distort time and space to where you essentially bring the mountain to
Mohammad; you almost bring your destination to you without moving. And since
you're distorting time, all this takes place in between moments of time. It's
such a far-fetched concept!
Knapp: Of course, what the UFO skeptics say is, yeah, there's life out there
elsewhere in the universe; it can never come here; it's just too darn far.
With the kind of technology you're talking about, it makes such considerations
irrelevant about distance and time and things like that.
Lazar: Exactly, because when you are distorting time, there's no longer a
normal reference of time. And that's what producing your own gravity does.
Knapp: You can go forward or backward in time? Is that's what you're saying?
Lazar: No, not essentially. It would be easier with a model. On the bottom
side of the disk are the three gravity generators. When they want to travel
to a distant point, the disk turns on its side. The three gravity generators
produce a gravitational beam. What they do is they converge the three gravity
generators onto a point and use that as a focal point; and they bring them up
to power and PULL that point towards the disk. The disk itself will attach ONTO
that point and snap back -- AS THEY RELEASE SPACE BACK TO THAT POINT! Now
all this happens in the distortion of time, so time is not incrementing. So
the SPEED is essentially infinite.
Knapp: We'll get into the disks in a moment. But the first time you saw the
anti-matter reactor in operation or a demonstration -- you had a couple of
demonstrations -- tell me about that.
Lazar: The first time I saw it in operation, we just put -- a friend I worked
with, Barry -- put the fuel in the reactor, put the lid on as, as was shown
there. Immediately, a gravitational field developed, and he said, "Feel it!"
And it felt like you bring two like poles of a magnet together; you can do
that with your hand. And it was FASCINATING to do that, impossible, except on
something with great mass! And obviously this is just a . . . And it was a
REPULSION field. In fact, we kind of fooled around with it for a little while.
And we threw golf balls off it. And it was just a really unique thing.
Knapp: And you had other demonstrations to show you that this is pretty wild
stuff, right?
Lazar: Yeah, they did. They were able to channel the field off in a
demonstration that they created an INTENSE gravitational area. And you began
to see a small little black disk form, and that was the bending of the light.
Knapp: Just like a black hole floating around?
Lazar: Yeah, well, a black hole is a bad analogy, but yeah, essentially.
Knapp: And they gave you some kind of demonstration about time,
involving a candle? Explain how that works.
Lazar: Yeah, they took a candle and lit it and put it in the distorted
gravitational field, which distorts time, and the candle just stood there.
It didn't melt or burn. It was REALLY unbelievable!
Knapp: You had to be floored by seeing all this.
Lazar: Oh I was! That's why I'm kind of laughing about it now because it must
sound ridiculous to everyone. But it's just phenomenal. I mean this is really
alien technology.
Knapp: About the 115: We talked a little bit about it in the series of
reports. Explain what it is again and why you believe it could not be
manufactured here.
Lazar: Okay, it's a super-heavy element: On the periodic chart, which lists
all the elements found on earth and that can be synthesized, I think
the highest element we've synthesized has been about Element 106. Now from 103
-- or actually, anything higher than plutonium up -- the half-life begins to
drop; in other words, the element disintegrates. When you get up to Element
106, it's only around for a very small amount of time. Even science today
theorizes that up around Element 113 to 116 -- somewhere in there -- they
should again become stable. This is in fact true. That's what Element 115 is;
it's a stable element. To synthesize it would be impossible. The way we
synthesize heavy elements is, we take a stable element like bismuth or
something like that, or plutionium, whatever, put it in an accelerator,
and BOMBARD it with protons. Essentially what you're trying to do is
plug in protons into the atoms and increase the atomic number. To do that
to the level of Element 115 would just take an infinite amount of power and an
infinite amount of time.
Knapp: What kinds of things, what capabilities would a heavy element like
this have -- I mean other than producing power? Obviously, it can produce a LOT
of power, right?
Lazar: It in itself is not anti-matter. It just has a unique property of
producing it. Any of the other basic properties it has I really don't know
of. But using just the anti-matter-producing property, the potential for a
weapon is staggering! It's absolutely staggering!
Knapp: Like what? A pound of it: what could it do?
Lazar: Well, 2.2 pounds is the energy equivalent of 47 10-megaton
hydrogen bombs. I mean, it's a good bang! And a pound of a super-heavy
element is maybe the size of a plum or something like that.
Knapp: I guess what I've heard most from people who just don't buy the whole
story is that sure, maybe you work at an area called S-4, and maybe it is a
secret area, but what you were shown is stuff that we've made. That we made
this 115 -- if it is 115 -- that we made the flying disks, that we made
these anti-matter reactors, because these are advances that you just don't
know about.
Lazar: Hardly. [Lazar laughs.]
Knapp: Why not?
Lazar: Well, the 115, it's impossible. And the FACT that the main job of
everyone there is to find out how everything's made; I mean that just
contradicts everything right off the bat. The materials are completely
alien to us, and just the overall idea of the project is: Hey, can we
duplicate this with materials that we have here? So obviously, it was
something that was found or given, for that matter, and we're just trying to
duplicate it.
Knapp: The 115: Where do you suppose it came from then? I mean, what kind of
environment would that kind of element come from?
Lazar: The only place that 115 could be made would have to be in a natural
situation, somewhere maybe on the fringes of a supernova or somewhere around
maybe a binary star system, where there was more mass in the primordial mix of
that system, where heavier elements would have had a chance to form, when the
stars were collapsing and there were huge amounts of energy being released.
It's something along these lines; it has to be a naturally-occurring
element.
Knapp: You saw an anti-matter reactor. You saw gravity-propulsion systems
in flying disks, flying saucers. You saw this Element 115. You also read a
series of reports that had other stunning information. Can you give an overview
of the kind of things that were in these reports?
Lazar: The reason I didn't do that before was, first of all they were just
reports. Everything else I had hands-on experience with. Now there was LOTS
of strange information in the reports, but there again it's just printed
material and it could be disinformation. I don't know. But certainly, the
information I did read in the reports about 115, the disks, the grav -- I mean,
that all had material that related to that. The reports went into aliens and
even went along the lines of religious --
Knapp: Well, we can let our audience know. I mean we discussed this, when we
were putting this series of reports together, whether to get into the alien
thing or not, and we decided not to for then time being. It's not like
you're hiding something from the audience or whatever, it was just a decision
we made. But you did see reports -- whether they're true or not --
Government reports about aliens.
Lazar: Yeah.
Knapp: What were the reports?
Lazar: There were photographs of aliens. There were autopsy reports. There
was really a wealth of information.
Knapp: What did they look like?
Lazar: The typical "grey." I hate to say that, like anyone knows what a typical
grey is. It's a creature, probably three and a half to four feet tall, a large
hairless head, black, slanted eyes, long arms, very thin-looking. I don't know
how else I would describe them.
Knapp: What does an autopsy report look like? What's included in an autopsy
report that you said you read?
Lazar: The reason I call it an autopsy report is I saw the carcass -- it was
obviously a dead alien -- carcass cut up and it was all dark inside like it
had an iron base. The reason I say iron is because it was very dark blood
or whatever. I'm not a doctor, but it seemed to be one large organ in the
body as opposed to identifiable heart and lungs and that sort of thing, but
just one gooey mess in it.
Knapp: What did the report say? It had pictures; it had to have some words:
"Here's Exhibit A, an alien"?
Lazar: Essentially so! They had weights and densities of the organs, said
there were no conclusions drawn, but it was just a basic description of what
the person who was cutting open the body saw.
Knapp: Say where they came from?
Lazar: Yeah, in one of the reports it said they came from Reticulum 4, was
what it said.
Knapp: Where is that? Any idea?
Lazar: [Lazar laughs.] Well, I'm told it's a star system in Zeta Reticuli.
Reticulum is the constellation. And by "Reticulum 4," they meant the fourth
planet out from that sun. In the same reports, we were identified -- instead
of saying Earth, we were identified as "Sol 3," meaning the third planet out
from our sun.
Knapp: Now you've read a lot of UFO material. Do you find yourself mixing
what you've read and what you've learned from up there?
Lazar: No, that's why I stay away from the UFO researchers and things like
that. I really don't want to be associated with that. I don't research the
stuff. It's interesting to read, but no, I'm not mixing anything that I've read
into this stuff.
Knapp: We were just talking about the UFO field in general, and you feel a
little reluctant to get mixed up in it, although you ARE right now.
Lazar: Unfortunately, yeah.
Knapp: Why the reluctance?
Lazar: I don't know. There are so MANY stories circulating around.
Everyone has their own view. Each UFO researcher says they have the right
story. And essentially, I don't want to side with anyone because I don't
know where that information's come from, though they do all have the basic
story: you know, there ARE alien crafts here; how they got here is, probably
aliens brought them here, unless we really have a neat setup with the UPS.
There's just so many different factions of them [UFO researchers],
and they all kind of war between each other; I really don't want to get
associated with them.
Knapp: Before you got into the program at S-4, though, you had an interest
in UFOs. It must be hard for people to swallow that here's a guy who has an
interest in it and he gets hired into the program.
Lazar: Well, there was a very brief time there I had sent out resumes to several
places, and I wanted to get back into the scientific field again. Almost
simultaneously, I met John Lear and read some of his material. And
initially, I thought he was just absolutely crazy. But apparently, he did
have a good source of information because, as it turns out, some of the
information that he had I actually had hands-on experience with.
Knapp: But your regard for UFOs in general: As a scientist, did you think
there was something to it?
Lazar: Absolutely not.
Knapp: Absolutely nothing?
Lazar: No. I would have stood on that 'til the day I died.
Knapp: Many of the people who have been calling are UFO groups or UFO
researchers who have demanded that you talk to them: We've got to talk to this
guy; we want to give him a lot more publicity so he stays alive; we want him to
give us information so that we can further check out his background, etc.; we
want to protect him; we want to help him. You've resisted. You've done this
program; you've done a couple of reports with us; and you've done a radio
show or two; in general, you've resisted going into the UFO circuit. Why
is that?
Lazar: Just like I mentioned before: I just don't want to be associated with
those guys. And how many people are you going to open up your background to
and let them run rampant through it? I mean, private detectives, every UFO group
in the world wants to do that! The idea was for me to release the information,
essentially to protect myself and take some of the heat off. And I've done
that. And that's all that needs to be done, really.
Knapp: Certain UFO researchers claim they've been getting information from
you all along; you've been leaking stuff to them; and that they've read these
reports that verify the information. You've been working with UFO groups while
you were in the program at S-4?
Lazar: Not UFO groups. I did mention a couple of things to some people. That's
all I'm gonna say.
Knapp: Okay. In essence, were you breaking your vows that you made to the
Government?
Lazar: Yeah.
Knapp: And why did you feel that was necessary? I mean, you took an oath,
didn't you?
Lazar: Yeah. But look at the magnitude of what was going on. I believe that
some of the technology -- maybe all of the technology -- should be kept
secret, until we have a handle on everything. But certainly, the overview of
what happened just cannot be a secret from anyone -- not just the American
people, but the rest of the world. Let out the basic fact that we have these
craft, at one time aliens did at least visit and drop off something, however
they got here, that there was some contact made, and then cut it short.
You don't need to release the information on the gravity generators, the weapon
potential -- which is enormous -- and so on.
Knapp: What could you do with that technology? Say you took the flying disks,
the anti-matter reactors, the gravity generators, gave it to Los Alamos or
Livermore, let them examine the potential abilities of this stuff. I mean,
how would this affect life on earth if this stuff was widely available?
Lazar: And mass-producable?
Knapp: Yes.
Lazar: That's tough to say. I mean, you have a completely different mode of
travel. What happens when you can play with time? That gets into a really deep
philosophical question there.
Knapp: But I mean, it would change a lot of stuff, change everything.
Lazar: Oh yeah! It would change absolutely everything!
Knapp: Do you think it will ever come out?
Lazar: Personally, no.
Knapp: What do you hope happens, both with yourself and with this
information?
Lazar: There's been enough thorns put in their toes to where they do try and
release something.
Knapp: We'll have to have you come back, Bob. Thanks for joining us.